Two days after Charlie Cooper’s Myth Country arrives on BBC iPlayer, Tradfolk sits down with its creator for a lengthy interview. When there’s folkishness to be discussed, we like to move quickly, and we’re delighted to say that Charlie Cooper feels very much the same. Known primarily for the truly wonderful This Country series that he created with his sister, Daisy May Cooper, you can rest assured that his interest in British folk traditions is not just a passing fad. This man has the bug and he has it bad. We sit for nearly two hours in a Stroud coffee shop, initially in the company of two passing members of Boss Morris (you can’t swing a hanky in this neck of the woods without hitting a progressive Morris dancer), and he peppers me with as many folk-related questions as I have for him. He’s keen and he’s eager to learn. Although, that’s not to say he isn’t nervous.
“I’ve just been looking at social media”, he tells me through locked fingers and fidgeting thumbs. “I’ve been getting some feedback. I’m not brave enough to put in the hashtag or look on Twitter so much. Instagram’s nicer. I just have no idea how it’s going to go down.”
He needn’t worry. Charlie Cooper’s Myth Country, a three-part investigation into a handful of folk traditions, myths and legends, is a joy. It’s perfectly balanced; interested, insightful; respectful but tongue-in-cheek where levity is required. Cooper knows how seriously the folklore world takes this stuff, but he also recognises that he won’t bring his audience along for the ride unless he occasionally taps into Kurtan (his character in the similarly-titled-on-purpose, This Country). The result is more documentary than his award-winning mockumentary, but with enough wry looks-to-camera to keep it from getting completely bogged down. It’s also a delight to look at, following in the vein of Detectorists and The Change in making the British countryside a co-star of the show.
As the Morris dancers prance off into the early afternoon, we turn our attention to crop circle turf warfare, the point at which Charlie stops and Kurtan starts, his devotion to Mackenzie Crook, and the obvious starter for 10: Why, in 2024, is the BBC commissioning Kurtan from This Country to make a documentary investigating the rural folk traditions of Britain?
Charlie Cooper: We’re living through a slightly terrifying time. We’re all so hyper-connected in so many ways, but I just feel that we’re in a void, aren’t we? We are disconnected. We’re spending more hours indoors and on screens and less time out in nature. We’re disconnected from our environment in a way. The fact that there is a revival in all this stuff, particularly with young people, is so comforting. Maybe people are rejecting everything that’s going on.
But why this fascination with folklore and ritual? If you just want to escape the computer screen and get back to nature, you could just go for a walk in the woods.
I think it’s about feeling a connection. And there’s definitely a national identity crisis going on. We don’t quite know who we are and where we come from and what true British culture is. But this is true British culture – all the folk customs and traditions and rituals. But people had stopped looking that far back.
It’s also that sense of community, doing stuff together. The only positive about Instagram is that there is such a strong folk community there. That’s how I became really obsessed with it and suddenly made a lot of friends through that. Whether people are crafting little straw dollies and sharing them, or they’re folk artists or folk singers… it’s all there. You can create your own feed, basically. It’s just amazing. Through Instagram, younger people are seeing Lewes Bonfire Night, the Ottery St Mary tar barrels, cheese rolling, Morris dancing… They want to be a part of it because it’s just so different to what they’re used to.
We’re sitting here having coffee in Stroud. Is this the area you grew up in? Were you seeing these rural traditions locally when you were younger?
Yeah, totally. I grew up in Cirencester. Writing This Country, that was a deep dive into what it was like growing up in rural Gloucestershire – digging into all the weird stuff that goes on… the brilliantly weird stuff. Fates and summer fairs, all the Morris dancing and the maypoles, the Harvest Festival… I began to realise that they don’t have this stuff everywhere. It’s quite specific, usually. We were trying to think of episode ideas and just thinking about the real specific stuff. This Country was all about being true to the place and making it real and believable. Then one thing leads to another… When I moved out Stroud way, there was so much more of this folk stuff than in Cirencester.
So, when you started writing This Country, you weren’t particularly aware of these ritualistic things?
No, not consciously, I don’t think. It was really in the writing of that, I think, that I discovered them properly.
I am coming at it from a point of interest and wonder
Charlie Cooper
The first time I became aware of the fact that you had a folkiness about you, so to speak, was when you did that one-off podcast with Weird Walk.
Oh, yeah, of course.
Was that a bridge from your discoveries through This Country to this deeper interest in folk traditions?
Totally, yeah. I was interested in all this stuff but I didn’t imagine myself presenting in any way or doing a TV thing. But that was the perfect stepping stone. Again, I’m not an expert, but if I’m learning as I go in a documentary, I think that’s one way of making it not feel like I’m taking the mick. I am coming at it from a point of interest and wonder, and that was really important, I think, in making Myth Country. Because the one thing I did not want it to come across was that it was sneering, or anything like that.
I think It’s really well-balanced. I think that’s what makes it a success.
Well, yeah… it was challenging to make because this is not a typical documentary. There’s not a lot else out there that you can compare it to because we wanted it to be factual, but also fairly light-hearted and accessible for people of all ages to watch. And it’s for people who know nothing about folklore, hoping that they come away knowing something more. We wanted to make it intriguing and interesting. Trying to balance those things was really tricky. We got there in the end. I love Gone Fishing with Bob Mortimer and Paul Whitehouse…
Oh, you were on an episode of that as well, weren’t you? I remember seeing that.
Yeah! Well Rob Gill, the director of Myth Country, he also directs that. We wanted elements of that show in this, in the way that it felt like a comfort watch, but showed off the best of the British landscape. That was important. But it’s easy for them because they’re staying in one location, and it’s just the chat between Bob and Paul that’s brilliant, and that drives the show. Whereas this, we’ve got various locations and various characters. I think we wanted to weave a loose narrative just to make it entertaining and make all those things work, basically. So yeah, it’s a bit more complex.
After a few pints, I go full Kurtan
Charlie Cooper
Have you read the Guardian review yet?
Yeah… the Guardian review has given me a slight personality disorder. Who am I?! I’m having an identity crisis!
Well, sorry to make you feel worse, but Lucy Mangan [the reviewer] pointed out a really interesting thing. Anyone who has watched This Country and Myth Country will wonder where Charlie Cooper finishes and Kurtan starts. You’re clearly interested in the traditions you cover in this new series, but sometimes it’s like you’re playing a role. Is that what you were doing, or are you actually Kurtan in real life?
Well, I mean, I wrote Kurtan as a character, but so much of that character is me. It’s the same with Alan Partridge… he’s Steve Coogan, essentially. Often, after a few pints, I go full Kurtan. If there’s a camera in front of me it’s just so easy to slip back into that. It is difficult to switch it off sometimes. I think it’s because of the style of the documentary, because I’m not talking to camera and I’m talking off-screen like it was in the show. But then again, it’s like, which moments am I playing up in? Which moments do I need to be a little bit more serious?
You’re not even aware of it yourself.
[Laughs] No, not at all! It’s really strange. I was watching it back the other night after reading the Guardian review. I was like, “Oh God!” I was really listening to what I’m saying. I was like, “Is that Kurtan? Would Kurtan say that?” Now I’m in a crisis. I can’t differentiate! Fuck knows. Maybe I just am him. But there’s so much of Kerry in Daisy. It’s a bit of an alter ego, really.
But that’s what gives it all a continuity. It means that the people who fell in love with This Country are able to instantly connect with what you’re doing here, whether they’re particularly interested in folklore or not.
Yeah. Although, I don’t think we set out for it to be like, “Oh, let’s just do This Country but with folk elements.” It just happened naturally. What I love about This Country is the pace of it, and I think that’s what we got into Myth Country. It’s just gentle. A lot of it is subtle.
And then there’s the title…
The title, obviously, was a little strange [laughs]. Initially, I was like, I don’t want it to be This Country-related at all, but we were having troubles being able to get the IP for the word “legend”.
You wanted to call it Legend?
Well, at one point, it was called Land of Legends. Then I wanted to call it Charlie Cooper’s Folklore, Myths & Legends. I definitely wanted the word ‘folklore’ in it. The BBC weren’t keen. Maybe it’s an algorithm thing. I don’t know.
Mackenzie Crook probably thinks I’m trying to steal his identity… which I definitely am!
Charlie Cooper
Obviously, there are a bunch of TV shows that have come out in the last decade or so that coalesce around this folkish sensibility – things like The Change, and then Mackenzie Crook’s stuff, Detectorists and Worzel Gummidge. Are these things you were influenced by?
Oh my god, totally! Detectorists is, for me, one of the best shows ever. The tone of it and the pace of it. It’s so beautiful to watch. It’s all about the British landscape. I have met Mackenzie Crook a few times and he’s just the sweetest man. He probably thinks I’m trying to steal his identity… which I definitely am [laughs]. Sorry, Mackenzie! But yeah, I’ve got writing projects at the moment and I’m desperately trying to crowbar as much folk as I can into them because I just feel it’s not really something you see much on TV beyond those shows.
[Starts to get wistful] Detectorists, though… metal detectors… such a beautiful backdrop for a comedy. It gives you such a different perception on history and existence, doesn’t it? I don’t know… Mackenzie is just an ultimate hero. He’s directing the second season of The Change isn’t he?
That’s right, yeah. It’s all connected.
Yeah, it totally is.
Was it easy to sell Myth Country to the BBC? Do you think they’re aware of this growing interest in folk culture?
A lot of people have that view of folk as being something that old people do, and that it belongs in the past. You think about Morris dancers – old blokes with white beards moving gingerly around the village green… It was a bit of a hard sell. One of their notes was like, “We need to get younger people in it.” But it isn’t about that. It’s about whoever’s right to show. That’s why featuring people like Lucy Pringle [episode two] and Iwan Evans [episode three], who are in their 80s, is so important because you just don’t see them on TV anymore. There was a bit of back-and-forth to get the tone right but I think we got there in the end. I’m just thankful that the BBC gave us the opportunity, really.
How did you pick the particular rituals and myths for each of the three episodes?
We had a long list of stuff. Black Shuck felt like a perfect opener. That covers mythical stories. I think that’s a great gateway for someone who’s not aware of – or not particularly into – folklore, myths and legends. It’s basically a ghost story, isn’t it? Either you believe it or you don’t. But the folkloric history of it is so interesting. So that felt like the right thing. I think that was a strong episode. The second episode about crop circles, that came from an old article I found on the BBC. It was all about cropies, crop circle enthusiasm, and about the inner conflict…
The inner conflict of crop circles?!
Obviously, with crop circles, everyone thinks about the alien thing. But that is actually the least interesting part. There’s a lot of… it’s not turf warfare, but… [laughs] That’s why we had Lewis, the unidentified guy in the show. He didn’t want to be on TV because he thought that if people knew that he’d done it, he’d get his car keyed. He’s a well-known crop circle maker and he’s got various rivals that also make crop circles. They hate each other. I was like, “That’s amazing!” I actually wanted to do more about that, but then it was quite difficult to make that into a half hour. It became a little bit more general.
Then there was the Wales episode on King Arthur. That was the last one and it came together really late. We got Owen Shiers involved but we didn’t find him until really late on. We were a bit worried about it because we didn’t really have the characters, but he found Iwan Evans, and then it all came together. Then obviously, the metal-detecting rally at the end was great because we actually found something. It was a lovely crescendo.
Will there be a second series?
We have so many more ideas, and that’s the problem. We’d love to go to Orkney just because you’ve got all that ancient stuff, you’ve got storytellers and great folk music up there. We’ll see. We’d love to do more rituals and traditions. We’d love to do stuff like the Burry Man. We’d love to do the Whittlesea Straw Bear. I’ve been talking to Ben Edge. We were trying to get him in this series but there wasn’t enough time. We’d love to feature him for an episode in the second series and for him to be my guide around some of these things.
We interviewed the Whittlesea Straw Bear guy here on Tradfolk. He was fascinating because that bear is like his life’s mission. He inherited the right to be the bear.
Woah! He’s got the weight of the world on his shoulders! That is beautiful. I mean, even the sporting stuff, I find really fascinating. The Shrovetide football between the villages that goes on for three days. It’s chaos! It’d be great to make an episode about that. Folklore is such a varied subject. We would love to do the mummers – that would be brilliant. There is a long list of things we need to do.
Your sister and your dad are both in Myth Country. Are they into this folk stuff too?
Yeah, they love it. Daisy, particularly. But they’re both narcissists, so any chance of being on TV. They didn’t even get paid! One of the discussions early on in production was like, “Oh, have you got any celebrity friends that you can get in the show?” I don’t actually have any celebrity friends. The only celebrity I know is my sister. Plus, we didn’t want it to be just another celebrity travel show where they get their mates and they just go off somewhere. There’s so much of that. That’s why it’s so lovely using local historians and genuine local people. Those are the people I want to see on TV. The great thing about the whole show was really making something that I know that I would love to watch – those weird 90s TV shows that I actively seek out on iPlayer, but tend to have to go and find on YouTube.
Soon we’ll be gone and someone else in 800 years time will be finding my iPhone or whatever I’ve lost on a night out
Charlie Cooper
It’s great that you got Man In The Woods onto the show. Tradfolk readers will be familiar with his work.
Yeah, I love him. I’ve only known him a few years. We became friends on social media and now we meet up once a month – go for a walk, have a pint. If I’m ever feeling uneasy with the world, or I’m a bit anxious, I know that I can meet with him and the world suddenly feels all right because he’s just so calming. Are you familiar with Pocahontas? He reminds me of the grandma willow tree. That’s how I see him. He’s this wise owl that I can link up with. Getting him involved was great because, obviously, he also designed all the art for the show. I think he turned up to the pilot we filmed before Christmas, which we did in Stroud with Boss Morris, and he just wanted to come along and watch. I was in this village hall watching Boss do their thing and he was in the corner doing his embroidery. Rob, the director, was like, “Who’s that guy doing the embroidery?” I was like, “Oh, that’s my mate.” He was like, “Right, he’s got to be in the series if we get to make it.”
Did you actually stay up all night and make the crop circle together?
Yeah! We did that, but we were slightly stressed because we left it to the last minute to do the design. When I asked Scott [Man in the Woods] to design it, he turned up with this huge poster of the most intricate crop circle you will ever see. I was like, “Are you kidding? We could never fucking make this!” We had to simplify it and it came together in the end. But you know what? I totally get why people do it. It was so much fun. It was just me and him, a beautiful night out in the field, and you do feel way more connected. You are plugged in. And stuff like making crop circles or metal detecting or fishing or whatever, all those things are just a means of reconnecting with your environment. That’s so lovely. I’ve since become obsessed with metal detecting as well.
You really are turning into…
I know! Poor bugger [laughs] But I’ve been on a few rallies and I found a hammered coin in my sister’s garden. It’s the first coin I found and it’s from the time of King John. It was like 800 years old! Just the idea of touching something that hasn’t been touched in that length of time… you think about the person who lost it… it gives you a completely different perception on life and death and the fact that we’re not on this planet for long. Soon we’ll be gone and someone else in 800 years time will be finding my iPhone or whatever I’ve lost on a night out.
Did you have a feeling that you would actually see Black Shuck?
No. I mean, it would have made great TV, although people would never have believed it. “That’s just AI or Photoshop.” Yeah, I don’t know. I think we had to do a stakeout, though. It was a great scene to be able to introduce the van and introduce elements of nature. I’m obsessed with badgers, so I use these camera traps at home. I’ve got badgers come to the house every night. One summer I got obsessed with them, and I love the element of capturing wildlife stealthfully on camera. But unfortunately, Black Shuck didn’t make an appearance.
Do you think the people that you met honestly believe that they’d seen it?
I mean, I have no reason to discount their story. They saw something. There’s no doubt about that. Whether it’s Shuck or not… it’s fascinating. Nigel, the guy in the episode that I speak to on the beach, he was so passionate about it. He was Norfolk through and through. Norwich City fan. Been there all his life. He knows all the pubs, all the tales. I don’t know. I have no reason not to believe him. He’s a former print salesman, so he’s reliable, right? Then there was Nick, the thatcher…
I couldn’t believe he was real!
I know! He was amazing, wasn’t he? He looked like a young Hulk Hogan. Norfolk Hulk! But his story… [looks amazed, shakes his head] And finally, at the podcast recording, it was such a cross-section of society. You had a family that all saw the same thing together with their kids. People with different backgrounds, different ages… Everyone had similar strands going through their stories. I don’t know. Do you believe in this stuff?
No, probably not.
But then what do you think they saw?
I don’t know. A shadow? That’s the thing, though. My mum has an incredible ghost story that happened to her when she was younger but she isn’t someone who believes in ghosts. There are things that are hard to explain. Put it this way: when I was younger, I would absolutely discount everything. These days I’m less inclined to dismiss stuff. I don’t necessarily believe them but I think it’s incredibly arrogant to assume we can know the answers to everything.
Yeah, I think you’ve got to be open-minded. Black Shuck – there are versions of him all over the country. Why is that? Why is it always a hound? Why not a black cat? Maybe it is like that caveman thing – keeping yourself alive. The fear of being preyed upon. I don’t know.
If you go wandering down a dark country lane late at night and you’re walking for some distance and the moon’s out…
Yeah, it’s instinctive, isn’t it? I just think keeping an open mind for all this stuff is so… [gets lost in the wonder of it all]. The mystery of it is so brilliant. With Myth Country, the BBC wanted to have conclusions at the end of each episode and I was like, “We’re not actually going to find out whether Black Shuck exists or not!” This stuff will always remain interesting because we’ll never know. It’s inconclusive, isn’t it? I think the BBC got that point by the end when we didn’t actually find Arthur’s treasure. But this stuff makes life more interesting because we have got the answers to everything now. We’ve all got a phone that we can look up anything we want. We need to understand why everything is the way it is. Sometimes it’s better to let the mystery be. We’re missing that, definitely.
So, are you on board from here on in? Are you a folk man now?
Yeah, totally. If the folk community will let me in. They may chase me out again. It’s a great thing to have in your life, though. It’s such a comfort, and such a magical world to explore.
Charlie Cooper’s Myth Country is currently showing on BBC3. All episodes are available on iPlayer.
